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	<title>Comments on: Considering the Dash</title>
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	<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php</link>
	<description>A 360-Degree View of the Creative World</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: john dabbs</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-55419</link>
		<dc:creator>john dabbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-55419</guid>
		<description>What about the use of hyphenated words?  It arises frequently in our business (real estate).
eg 3-car garage, eat-in kitchen!

What is current convention?
Thanks
John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the use of hyphenated words?  It arises frequently in our business (real estate).<br />
eg 3-car garage, eat-in kitchen!</p>
<p>What is current convention?<br />
Thanks<br />
John</p>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-5975</link>
		<dc:creator>Claire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-5975</guid>
		<description>I'm a textbook designer and the house style for my main client (in the US) is to use a spaced em dash. Since full word spaces get a bit unwieldy, we spec a small space like a 1/4 en space or a punctuation space around the dash which will allow line breaks around the dash for better justification, yet still allow the dash to sit close enough to the words on either side. And dashes are far enough away not to touch words or turn flanking words into a single visual unit. Since the Pub prefers not to break lines before a long dash, I can specify a nonbreaking space before and a breaking space after the dash to make the page layout program handle the dashes the way the Pub wants automatically. If the dashes are set closed, it's all manual oversight, and you have to hope you have a good proofreader paying attention. 

A &lt;strong&gt;slightly&lt;/strong&gt; open em dash looks similar in running text to an en dash with full word spaces on either side, but does not have the problem of having those regular word spaces opening up even more when dashes appear on a looser line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a textbook designer and the house style for my main client (in the US) is to use a spaced em dash. Since full word spaces get a bit unwieldy, we spec a small space like a 1/4 en space or a punctuation space around the dash which will allow line breaks around the dash for better justification, yet still allow the dash to sit close enough to the words on either side. And dashes are far enough away not to touch words or turn flanking words into a single visual unit. Since the Pub prefers not to break lines before a long dash, I can specify a nonbreaking space before and a breaking space after the dash to make the page layout program handle the dashes the way the Pub wants automatically. If the dashes are set closed, it&#8217;s all manual oversight, and you have to hope you have a good proofreader paying attention. </p>
<p>A <strong>slightly</strong> open em dash looks similar in running text to an en dash with full word spaces on either side, but does not have the problem of having those regular word spaces opening up even more when dashes appear on a looser line.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel John Klein</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-3878</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel John Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-3878</guid>
		<description>Actually, I &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; have &lt;em&gt;Eats, Shoots, and Leaves&lt;/em&gt;. It's a great book, written with humor and insight, and I recommend it wholeheartedly.

You mention the apparent standard practice being different in the UK and Australia, and I've noticed it as well. Sometimes I will actually get a familiar book published in the UK just to get the experience of a different typesetting regime. 

There is a qualitiative difference to the reading that makes for an awareness-expanding experience that I quite enjoy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I <em>do</em> have <em>Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</em>. It&#8217;s a great book, written with humor and insight, and I recommend it wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>You mention the apparent standard practice being different in the UK and Australia, and I&#8217;ve noticed it as well. Sometimes I will actually get a familiar book published in the UK just to get the experience of a different typesetting regime. </p>
<p>There is a qualitiative difference to the reading that makes for an awareness-expanding experience that I quite enjoy.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-3871</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 05:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-3871</guid>
		<description>All of us concerned with proper punctuation should read, 'Eats Shoots and Leaves' by Lynne Truss.

An interesting yet humourous and entertaining read.

In regard to em dash spaces, I have found spaces between words and em dashes tend to be used in the UK and Australia, whereas no spaces are used in the American market. Lynne's book has both American and UK editions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of us concerned with proper punctuation should read, &#8216;Eats Shoots and Leaves&#8217; by Lynne Truss.</p>
<p>An interesting yet humourous and entertaining read.</p>
<p>In regard to em dash spaces, I have found spaces between words and em dashes tend to be used in the UK and Australia, whereas no spaces are used in the American market. Lynne&#8217;s book has both American and UK editions.</p>
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		<title>By: Yateen</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-1049</link>
		<dc:creator>Yateen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-1049</guid>
		<description>The difference I've observed most consistenly is that European typography favours pairs of spaced en dashes whereas American typography almost always uses pais of unspaced em dashes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The difference I&#8217;ve observed most consistenly is that European typography favours pairs of spaced en dashes whereas American typography almost always uses pais of unspaced em dashes.</p>
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		<title>By: Pariah S. Burke</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-313</link>
		<dc:creator>Pariah S. Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-313</guid>
		<description>That said, I've always hated space-em-space; it's too jarring a break in the flow of language. Em dashes in independent clauses--like this one--are supposed to provide just enough of a separation to communicate that the thought is outside the main point of the sentence, that the sentence could stand alone without it, but that the clause is still part of the same train of thought (and more important than parens would denote). Flanking the em dashes with spaces, however -- like this -- creates too much of a separation--a near disconnect--and often creates a distraction large enough that the user's eye is drawn out of surrounding lines of text toward the oddly oversized gap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That said, I&#8217;ve always hated space-em-space; it&#8217;s too jarring a break in the flow of language. Em dashes in independent clauses&#8211;like this one&#8211;are supposed to provide just enough of a separation to communicate that the thought is outside the main point of the sentence, that the sentence could stand alone without it, but that the clause is still part of the same train of thought (and more important than parens would denote). Flanking the em dashes with spaces, however &#8212; like this &#8212; creates too much of a separation&#8211;a near disconnect&#8211;and often creates a distraction large enough that the user&#8217;s eye is drawn out of surrounding lines of text toward the oddly oversized gap.</p>
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		<title>By: Pariah S. Burke</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-312</link>
		<dc:creator>Pariah S. Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-312</guid>
		<description>Logistical note:  The Designorati text rendering engine is programmed to automatically substitute certain shorthand glyph arrangements with their typographically correct equivalents. For example, every time you type three periods into a comment, it's transformed on the fly into a genuine ellipse (which is a tighter kerned set of three dots, which are smaller dots than periods).

I've also programmed in compensation for, and correction of, typical bad dash habits, as well. This may affect the display of your intended literal examples (making bad examples to illustrate a point into good examples and confounding your point).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Logistical note:  The Designorati text rendering engine is programmed to automatically substitute certain shorthand glyph arrangements with their typographically correct equivalents. For example, every time you type three periods into a comment, it&#8217;s transformed on the fly into a genuine ellipse (which is a tighter kerned set of three dots, which are smaller dots than periods).</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also programmed in compensation for, and correction of, typical bad dash habits, as well. This may affect the display of your intended literal examples (making bad examples to illustrate a point into good examples and confounding your point).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Schultz</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-302</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Schultz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-302</guid>
		<description>I agree that, when there's conflicting "rules" of typography, consistency is the best we can achieve. Who can tell what is right or wrong, especially when the experts cannot decide?

BTW, I'll have to look up Felici's notes on ellipses but I do remember that the computer keystroke for creating an ellipsis actually sets the points way too close. It's better to use "...".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that, when there&#8217;s conflicting &#8220;rules&#8221; of typography, consistency is the best we can achieve. Who can tell what is right or wrong, especially when the experts cannot decide?</p>
<p>BTW, I&#8217;ll have to look up Felici&#8217;s notes on ellipses but I do remember that the computer keystroke for creating an ellipsis actually sets the points way too close. It&#8217;s better to use &#8220;&#8230;&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel John Klein</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel John Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-299</guid>
		<description>Jeremy:

Thanks for pointing out the 3/M vs M/3 mistake, I shall fix. Also your comments in general.

Joan:

You've hit on a very good point again. I gave the Bringhurst guidelines partially in the interests of clarity and partially in the interests of aesthetics. When I see the endash without spacesâ€“like thisâ€“the dash and the words on either side tend to merge, for me, into one word shape. I find this distracting. 

Jeremy mentioned Felici, who says to do it this way. I find the Bringhurst method more personally aestheticallly pleasing.

But your point â€“ that consistency counts â€“ is well taken (notice that I've used both methods so far in this text). If you're inconsistent either you're trying to illustrate a point (as I'm doing here) or you're just being sloppy. As a designer and a typophile, I hate sloppy. For those not so trained, I'm convinced that they notice this on perhaps a subliminal level. As someone once said, you cannot &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; communicate.

And, since you mentioned the ellipsis . . . maybe I'll look into that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy:</p>
<p>Thanks for pointing out the 3/M vs M/3 mistake, I shall fix. Also your comments in general.</p>
<p>Joan:</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve hit on a very good point again. I gave the Bringhurst guidelines partially in the interests of clarity and partially in the interests of aesthetics. When I see the endash without spacesâ€“like thisâ€“the dash and the words on either side tend to merge, for me, into one word shape. I find this distracting. </p>
<p>Jeremy mentioned Felici, who says to do it this way. I find the Bringhurst method more personally aestheticallly pleasing.</p>
<p>But your point â€“ that consistency counts â€“ is well taken (notice that I&#8217;ve used both methods so far in this text). If you&#8217;re inconsistent either you&#8217;re trying to illustrate a point (as I&#8217;m doing here) or you&#8217;re just being sloppy. As a designer and a typophile, I hate sloppy. For those not so trained, I&#8217;m convinced that they notice this on perhaps a subliminal level. As someone once said, you cannot <em>not</em> communicate.</p>
<p>And, since you mentioned the ellipsis . . . maybe I&#8217;ll look into that.</p>
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		<title>By: Joan</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-298</link>
		<dc:creator>Joan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-298</guid>
		<description>I've seen both the space-en-dash-space and the em-dash-with-no-spaces interpretations. I've come to the conclusion that as long as you're consistent within a document, they're both clear forms of the same punctuation. 

I've also gone back and forth about ellipses... I've seen them that way (all together with no spaces, but a space after) as well as this way . . . (a space before and after each one). I think I prefer them with no spaces, but now I don't automatically look down on people who do use the spaces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen both the space-en-dash-space and the em-dash-with-no-spaces interpretations. I&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that as long as you&#8217;re consistent within a document, they&#8217;re both clear forms of the same punctuation. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also gone back and forth about ellipses&#8230; I&#8217;ve seen them that way (all together with no spaces, but a space after) as well as this way . . . (a space before and after each one). I think I prefer them with no spaces, but now I don&#8217;t automatically look down on people who do use the spaces.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Schultz</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-297</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Schultz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-297</guid>
		<description>Sam, thanks so much for this great article on proper usage of dashes and hyphens. The lack of expert typography is one of my pet peeves, and good type is one of the cornerstones of all design IMHO.

I found the rule on using en dashes and spaces to denote phrases â€“ like this â€“ interesting. I adhere to James Felici's Complete Manual of Typography (Adobe Press) and he says to use em dashes without spacesâ€”like thisâ€” to do the same. I wonder which is proper?

BTW, is the three-to-em dash abbreviated as 3/M, or M/3? You use both in the article.

Thanks again for this illuminating piece!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, thanks so much for this great article on proper usage of dashes and hyphens. The lack of expert typography is one of my pet peeves, and good type is one of the cornerstones of all design IMHO.</p>
<p>I found the rule on using en dashes and spaces to denote phrases â€“ like this â€“ interesting. I adhere to James Felici&#8217;s Complete Manual of Typography (Adobe Press) and he says to use em dashes without spacesâ€”like thisâ€” to do the same. I wonder which is proper?</p>
<p>BTW, is the three-to-em dash abbreviated as 3/M, or M/3? You use both in the article.</p>
<p>Thanks again for this illuminating piece!</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel John Klein</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-280</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel John Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-280</guid>
		<description>You make a very good point. Email is a very personal medium and, while a certain skill with electronic type is certainly appreciated by myself (at least), the tolerances for, say, non standard uses are certainly wider.

In a perfect world I suppose we'd all be able to compose type perfectly and all OSs we send them to would interpret them just as meant. Obviously we don't live there, and we must make allowances for our Windows friends, as you correctly pointed out.

The guidelines &lt;em&gt;a la&lt;/em&gt; Bringhurst make eminent sense but we should follow them, IMHO, only as far as it makes sense to follow. I do a lot of my mail in plain text, which doesn't know from such typographic refinement, so I agree your subsitutions as mentioned are perfectly proper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a very good point. Email is a very personal medium and, while a certain skill with electronic type is certainly appreciated by myself (at least), the tolerances for, say, non standard uses are certainly wider.</p>
<p>In a perfect world I suppose we&#8217;d all be able to compose type perfectly and all OSs we send them to would interpret them just as meant. Obviously we don&#8217;t live there, and we must make allowances for our Windows friends, as you correctly pointed out.</p>
<p>The guidelines <em>a la</em> Bringhurst make eminent sense but we should follow them, IMHO, only as far as it makes sense to follow. I do a lot of my mail in plain text, which doesn&#8217;t know from such typographic refinement, so I agree your subsitutions as mentioned are perfectly proper.</p>
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		<title>By: Joan</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/415/considering-the-dash.php/comment-page-1#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>Joan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/?p=415#comment-279</guid>
		<description>An exception to the "no double-dashes" rule must be in e-mail. If I use the key command for an en-dash or an em-dash, with my Mac, it doesn't always show up appropriately for my Windows-using recipients. So for an em-dash, I consider it proper to substitute two hyphens. And for an en-dash, I substitute space-hyphen-space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An exception to the &#8220;no double-dashes&#8221; rule must be in e-mail. If I use the key command for an en-dash or an em-dash, with my Mac, it doesn&#8217;t always show up appropriately for my Windows-using recipients. So for an em-dash, I consider it proper to substitute two hyphens. And for an en-dash, I substitute space-hyphen-space.</p>
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