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	<title>Comments on: Why, Oh Why Are Tables So Bad?</title>
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	<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php</link>
	<description>A 360-Degree View of the Creative World</description>
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		<title>By: Dan S.</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php/comment-page-1#comment-236983</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Sep 2010 02:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/web-design/css-21/2005/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad/#comment-236983</guid>
		<description>If the only response you got was they aren&#039;t designed to perform that task, then the people you were talking to weren&#039;t well versed enough on the topic.

Tables don&#039;t work well for layout because they are markup that is used specifically for layout.  Layout should be handled separately, because it is not always guaranteed that you will want to change the markup when you change the layout.  If the markup is well written, it is possible to completely re-design the style of the site without changing a single line of the markup.

It&#039;s about separation of content from what that content looks like.  That&#039;s the movement.

That being said there are shortcomings to CSS.  It doesn&#039;t deal well with vertical alignment, floats are a little complicated to grasp and tasks that would be rather simple in tables can sometimes be a chore (even if you know CSS well).

In some cases, if it&#039;s tabular data, it makes sense to use a table.  If it&#039;s not tabular data, you&#039;re probably trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, and when you go to re-design your site or tweak the layout, you will regret your decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the only response you got was they aren&#8217;t designed to perform that task, then the people you were talking to weren&#8217;t well versed enough on the topic.</p>
<p>Tables don&#8217;t work well for layout because they are markup that is used specifically for layout.  Layout should be handled separately, because it is not always guaranteed that you will want to change the markup when you change the layout.  If the markup is well written, it is possible to completely re-design the style of the site without changing a single line of the markup.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s about separation of content from what that content looks like.  That&#8217;s the movement.</p>
<p>That being said there are shortcomings to CSS.  It doesn&#8217;t deal well with vertical alignment, floats are a little complicated to grasp and tasks that would be rather simple in tables can sometimes be a chore (even if you know CSS well).</p>
<p>In some cases, if it&#8217;s tabular data, it makes sense to use a table.  If it&#8217;s not tabular data, you&#8217;re probably trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, and when you go to re-design your site or tweak the layout, you will regret your decision.</p>
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		<title>By: CreativeGuy</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php/comment-page-1#comment-153</link>
		<dc:creator>CreativeGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/web-design/css-21/2005/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad/#comment-153</guid>
		<description>I find the argument to be quite useless to even have, considering we are in the age of broadband.

The main reason people started moving away from tables was because it was code-bloat on your Web page, which resulted in slower downloads for the end-user. 

Well, &lt;strong&gt;we don&#039;t live in a 28.8k modem world anymore&lt;/strong&gt;. A very good percentage of internet users in North America (where 90% of the internet commerce is done) have some form of broadband. And those users are *generally* the type of folks most people want as customers... they&#039;re affluent and have expendable income.

Personally, the whole Tables vs. CSS thing is about as useful as a Quark vs. InDesign argument... pointless, since both are capable of doing the job quite well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the argument to be quite useless to even have, considering we are in the age of broadband.</p>
<p>The main reason people started moving away from tables was because it was code-bloat on your Web page, which resulted in slower downloads for the end-user. </p>
<p>Well, <strong>we don&#8217;t live in a 28.8k modem world anymore</strong>. A very good percentage of internet users in North America (where 90% of the internet commerce is done) have some form of broadband. And those users are *generally* the type of folks most people want as customers&#8230; they&#8217;re affluent and have expendable income.</p>
<p>Personally, the whole Tables vs. CSS thing is about as useful as a Quark vs. InDesign argument&#8230; pointless, since both are capable of doing the job quite well.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Houser</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php/comment-page-1#comment-151</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Houser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/web-design/css-21/2005/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad/#comment-151</guid>
		<description>Eric, I appreciate your comment, but I was speaking to the comments above.  They seemed to be entry level questions, so I gave my opinion.

I start all of my designs in a non-table format - ALWAYS.  I use Fireworks, then work from there.  My point was that knowing the roots will help you grow.
As a designer, you know this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, I appreciate your comment, but I was speaking to the comments above.  They seemed to be entry level questions, so I gave my opinion.</p>
<p>I start all of my designs in a non-table format &#8211; ALWAYS.  I use Fireworks, then work from there.  My point was that knowing the roots will help you grow.<br />
As a designer, you know this.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php/comment-page-1#comment-148</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:14:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/web-design/css-21/2005/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad/#comment-148</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Iâ€™ve been using Dreamweaver for 7 years now, and I can tell you hands-down that using tables is a necessity in web design. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

What? Me thinks you think that it is still 1997.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.alistapart.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Start reading!&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://techcrunch.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Web 2.0 is calling you&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Iâ€™ve been using Dreamweaver for 7 years now, and I can tell you hands-down that using tables is a necessity in web design. </p></blockquote>
<p>What? Me thinks you think that it is still 1997.<br />
<a href="http://www.alistapart.com/" rel="nofollow">Start reading!</a><br />
<a href="http://techcrunch.com/" rel="nofollow">Web 2.0 is calling you</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alan Houser</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php/comment-page-1#comment-147</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Houser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/web-design/css-21/2005/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad/#comment-147</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been using Dreamweaver for 7 years now, and I can tell you hands-down that using tables is a necessity in web design.  There has been a recent wave to jump over to CSS, using WYSIWYG tools, but without fundamentals, it&#039;s pretty difficult to be great.

Case in point:
I went to recording school in the early 90&#039;s, when there were not too many digital systems that were affordable.  Everyone was starting to get the home multitrack recorders that used cassettes.  They sounded horrible, and rightfully so.  Then a decade later, this wave hit where digital multitracks were finally accessible.  We now have the power to use the same technology that the pros are using right on our desktops.  Does that mean that all of a sudden there&#039;s incredible music released now like never before?  You know that answer.

I can tell you that when you work with teams, especially developers who will be populating your code with thier code, that it&#039;s a necessity to keep your code accessible for them.  There&#039;s allot to understanding tables: working with spacing and cell padding, when to use percentages or code absolute widths, when to use a non-breaking space or to grab a transparent gif... sure they&#039;re difficult at times, but learning the fundamentals will go far.  And a plug: get studio8.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been using Dreamweaver for 7 years now, and I can tell you hands-down that using tables is a necessity in web design.  There has been a recent wave to jump over to CSS, using WYSIWYG tools, but without fundamentals, it&#8217;s pretty difficult to be great.</p>
<p>Case in point:<br />
I went to recording school in the early 90&#8242;s, when there were not too many digital systems that were affordable.  Everyone was starting to get the home multitrack recorders that used cassettes.  They sounded horrible, and rightfully so.  Then a decade later, this wave hit where digital multitracks were finally accessible.  We now have the power to use the same technology that the pros are using right on our desktops.  Does that mean that all of a sudden there&#8217;s incredible music released now like never before?  You know that answer.</p>
<p>I can tell you that when you work with teams, especially developers who will be populating your code with thier code, that it&#8217;s a necessity to keep your code accessible for them.  There&#8217;s allot to understanding tables: working with spacing and cell padding, when to use percentages or code absolute widths, when to use a non-breaking space or to grab a transparent gif&#8230; sure they&#8217;re difficult at times, but learning the fundamentals will go far.  And a plug: get studio8.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel John Klein</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php/comment-page-1#comment-144</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel John Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/web-design/css-21/2005/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad/#comment-144</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid (short shameful public confession) I&#039;m not that good at either GoLive or Dreamweaver. As far as CSS, I&#039;m just discovering it along with everybody else. 

I mean, style sheets don&#039;t confuse me. But something about CSS just makes it so darn odd. But I am working on learning it too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid (short shameful public confession) I&#8217;m not that good at either GoLive or Dreamweaver. As far as CSS, I&#8217;m just discovering it along with everybody else. </p>
<p>I mean, style sheets don&#8217;t confuse me. But something about CSS just makes it so darn odd. But I am working on learning it too.</p>
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		<title>By: Elisabetta Bruno</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php/comment-page-1#comment-143</link>
		<dc:creator>Elisabetta Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/web-design/css-21/2005/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad/#comment-143</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Particularly with GoLive CS2 there is now an option for choosing between table-based layout and CSS-based layout. The difference in code throwweight alone that Iâ€™ve seen proves out Maxineâ€™s comment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I was wondering whether with CSS you could still use WYSIWYG applications. Do you know if Dreamweaver can do that?

P.S.: I do know that GoLive isn&#039;t just a WYSIWYG application, but it does have that capability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Particularly with GoLive CS2 there is now an option for choosing between table-based layout and CSS-based layout. The difference in code throwweight alone that Iâ€™ve seen proves out Maxineâ€™s comment.</p></blockquote>
<p>I was wondering whether with CSS you could still use WYSIWYG applications. Do you know if Dreamweaver can do that?</p>
<p>P.S.: I do know that GoLive isn&#8217;t just a WYSIWYG application, but it does have that capability.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel John Klein</title>
		<link>http://designorati.com/articles/t1/web-design/257/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad.php/comment-page-1#comment-142</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel John Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2005 03:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://designorati.com/web-design/css-21/2005/why-oh-why-are-tables-so-bad/#comment-142</guid>
		<description>When using tables to create Web layout, I always did get the feeling that though they worked rather well, it wasn&#039;t exactly what they were meant to do. 

Perhaps it was seeing all those &lt;code&gt;&lt;td&gt;&#039;s and &lt;/td&gt;&#039;s&lt;/code&gt;, etc...they&#039;re not too big but, use a few here, use a few there, pretty soon you&#039;re talking about a biiig block of code.

Particularly with GoLive CS2 there is now an option for choosing between table-based layout and CSS-based layout. The difference in code throwweight alone that I&#039;ve seen proves out Maxine&#039;s comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When using tables to create Web layout, I always did get the feeling that though they worked rather well, it wasn&#8217;t exactly what they were meant to do. </p>
<p>Perhaps it was seeing all those <code>&lt;td&gt;'s and &lt;/td&gt;'s</code>, etc&#8230;they&#8217;re not too big but, use a few here, use a few there, pretty soon you&#8217;re talking about a biiig block of code.</p>
<p>Particularly with GoLive CS2 there is now an option for choosing between table-based layout and CSS-based layout. The difference in code throwweight alone that I&#8217;ve seen proves out Maxine&#8217;s comment.</p>
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